I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. What early church fathers "got into trouble" with universal salvation? "Gehenna (Gei Hinnom) became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, . It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. Though only for a while, but of course his being rejected is not related to any universalist teaching (if he held such, which is not undisputed), which were not the issue in 381. I can use the common meaning of words in scripture. He does not cast off forever. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). 7:32-33). The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. Though I vehemently disagree with you, I do not think your view stems from bad motives. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). He writes: I consulted over a dozen study Bibles on Matthew 5:22 and no less than eight of them made a reference to the rubbish heap. But that doesn't meant that only the "devil gets saved in the end" was condemned. If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. It might have been just as well to not press it. 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. I like how you responded to the (?I guess they are unbelievers) in the comments. In fact, near as anyone can tell, the earliest mention we have of this theory comes a Rabbi named David Kimhi who wrote a commentary on Psalm 27 in the 13th Century. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. 66:24 says "The THEY SHALL GO FORTH". These words can be used to describe something that is eternal, but this meaning has to be derived from the object they are used in conjunction with. Out of six major "seminaries" in the early church, four taught universal salvation, one taught annihilation (Ephesus)and one taught eternal punishment (Rome). Students may use the material on this site for school projects without permission. Second, the whole passage is disproportionate that is the point: that Christ rejects a minimal, just-barely-pass morality but rather sets a very high standard to his followers. And again, the worms and fire are figurative the real "punishment" (actually not so much a punishment but the consquence of one's decision) is having missed the last opportunity to be part of God's kingdom. You first have to make the text fit your interpretation. PDF He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. Rate: Ohio Serpent Mound in the News Fears becalmed. True enough. In Luke 16:26 Abraham explains why he can't send Lazarus to the rich man with a few drops of water. "Worms" in Isaiah 66:24 is towlah, and Gesenius notes that this word is especially used to denote worms that feed on FLESH, although it is also used to talk about worms in bread and the worm that killed Jonah's shade plant. Though I believe you are talking to the Universalists in this post, there are times when "eternal" doesn't mean a duration of time. But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. The three parables you mention also do not say how long the consequences for failure last or whether there is anything else to take place afterward. There are plenty of parallel verses that teach the salvation of all that must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. In any case, we will provide honest advice. People tend to believe what they want to believe unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Matthew 25) of the "blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" and of the "cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.". Wild animals fought over scraps of food along the edges of the heap. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. They ignore the nature of both worms and fire to protect their doctrine of an eternal hell. Your email address will not be published. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". Rob Bell takes the view in Love Wins that in Jesus' day Gehenna was the "city dump": "There was a fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash." It is a metaphor for the terrible consequences of rejecting "the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us". The "kingdom" of the Son will one day be turned over to the Father, and one of the epistles describes Jesus ruling it UNTIL all His enemies are put under His feet, so the parables about the kingdom and the wedding feast do not have to be describing the final state of "the Kingdom". In the lower part of the Hinnom Valley and Kidron Valley, the city dumped its waste and burned its trash. Are you serious? ", No one. There are a dozen parables by Christ talking about salvation and punishment I can't think of one which has one first being shut out and then being admitted after all not the foolish virgins with their lamps, not the Rich Man begging poor Lazarus, not the one being thrown out because of his not wearing a wedding garment etc. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And he mentions those who would go from where he himself was to the other side where the torment was FIRST. "if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. Romans 5:18-21 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. GEHENNA ga-hen'-a (geenna (see Grimm-Thayer, under the word)): Gehenna is a transliteration from the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom." This latter form, however, is rare in the Old Testament, the prevailing name being "the valley of the son of Hinnom." Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. But no matter what they eat, do not die, THEY LEAVE WHAT THEY ARE EATING TO BECOME A FLY OR MOTH. "With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimchi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse . The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna - Dr. Michael Heiser The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna Posted by DrHeiser | Apr 7, 2011 | AAG, Afterlife / Sheol / Hades, Ancient Sites & Archaeology, NakedBible, New Testament | That's the title of this worthwhile post from Todd Bolen. To die and go hell is being separated from God and since Jesus said, And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Matt 25:46). In Isaiah 30:33, it is referred to as Topheth, a horrible, fearsome place: "Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream . I've used this illustration many times. 2:8 for additional contextual support. Neovia group's primary competitors include Hi-Pro Feeds, NUTRI Feeds, Purina Animal Nutrition LLC and 8 more. The 'flesh' is also the context of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with. Rome? The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. The restoration of these cities is tied to the PEOPLE that lived there in 16:55. This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. Certainly they produced less waste than a modern city. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught.]. There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. Jerome also used the phrase "en aeturnum et ultra" ("in eternity and beyond") in his commantary on Collosians. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. As a rubbish dump, Gehenna was a place where fire burned constantly and where worms feasted on the garbage, and these images were transferred to the never-ending punishment of the rebellious. And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? 20:10. Arius was, Nestorius was, Eutyches was. So just imagine the hundreds of thousands of squirmy, wormy maggots living there, eating the rotting refuse. Salvation does not have to be eternal. It is amazing how putting on the legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts can blind people to verses that out to stop them in their tracks and make them wonder "What is going on here?". And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. ELeeMacFall 6 yr. ago Hell fire, Gehenna the garbage dump with its constantly burning fire. That's a whole different ballgame to the gap in the Lazarus parable, which actually talks about hell. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. What does a 2000-year-old garbage dump have to do with us, in modern America? Only the latter is grounds for personal condemnation. It differs from the neutral-leaning Sheol as Gehenna was considered a type of waiting room; the longest one can be there is 11 or 12 months with few exceptions. eitchen midden, kitchen midden, midden - (archeology) a mound of domestic refuse containing shells and animal bones marking the site of a prehistoric settlement. Kent thank you for your comment. According to the Jewish scholar David Kimhi (c. 1160-c. 1235 C.E. Chief among the modern ideas surrounding Gehenna is that of a smouldering garbage dump south of Jerusalem where perpetual fires consumed the city waste and the dead bodies of criminals thrown into it. There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. We should rather shun them than let them damage our salvation. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. There were people in Rome long after universalism was known in the church, whom Augustine called Christians, who believed in universal salvation, and still no decree from any council stating that a belief in an "eternal hell" was necessary to sound faith. No council ever did that! It is part and parcel with the place that we normally call Hell. And then "the age" is either eternal both times or it is temporal. and rules called canons. It does not need to be quenched. After all, Samaria did not return either but found successors that, though unconneceted with the northern kingdom, called themselves Samaritans. [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and animals would be dumped. All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. What church are you talking about? If you don't like it, go and take something else but don't put your thoughts into Christ's mouth. The Greek word gehenna is found 12 times in our New Testament ScripturesJesus used the term 11 times, and James used it one time. And does the father disinherit the son after the latter has conquered and toiled for him. It is never used by Jesus, and is only found in three places in the new testament, Acts 22:5 and 26:11 where Paul is talking about his 'punishment' of Christians before his conversion, and in Hebrews 10:29 where the context again is between those who adhere to the old covenant in opposition to the new, only this time the tables are turned. Mark 9:45. I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. You are confusing the matters under discussion at the time whith what others wrote at other times. Put simply, there is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a perpetually burning garbage dump. It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. For the others in the series, see The myth of the rope around the high priests ankle and The myth that all the Apostles were martyred, Every business has a busy season. The Valley of Hinnom ( Hebrew: , romanized : G en-Hnnm, lit. But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet. Cog of Blood. The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. the creed), negative condemnations ("Whosover says . God is not a torturer. 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