The Crown Prosecution Service A 16 year old youth appears in a youth court charged with robbery. The CTL is 182 days from 2nd January, (remember, it is counted from the 3rd as the first day is discounted, which the calculator doesautomatically for you) and ends on 3rd July 2017. Prosecutors should note this is an extremely short time limit to get the police to prepare and dispatch a case to the CPS and for the CPS to review and prepare it for service to the defence. From 28 September 2020 and ending on 28 June 2021, the 2020 Regulations will amend Regulation 5 (Custody time limits in the Crown Court) of the Prosecution of Offences (Custody Time Limits) Regulations 1987 by increasing the maximum periods of pre-trial custody in cases before the Crown Court as follows: Indictable only Offences - the time limit is 182 days (save for cases with CTLs starting on or after 28 September 2020 but before 28 June 2021 for which see below) from the date a case is sent under s.51 Crime and Disorder Act 1998, less any time spent in custody (if remanded by the magistrates' court) prior to sending (Regulation 5 (6B)). This period becomes 70 days if for any (highly unlikely) reason, the court does not move to summary trial before the end of the 56 day period. murder or any conspiracy, then the custody time limit is 182 days; Reg . If exceptionally, a refusal should occur unexpectedly, and the refusal to extend was plainly wrong, an appeal should be made and approval sought afterwards as a matter of urgency. This time limit also applies to either way charges sent together with (or subsequently to) any indictable only offences. Overall time limits were piloted for youth cases but were revoked. If a judge decides the defendant is not fit to be tried, a jury is then sworn to determine whether the offender was responsible for committing the acts charged, but does not go on to consider mens rea. A CTL begins at the court appearance when the defendant was first remanded but the day of that court appearance does not count towards the CTL period (Regulation 2(2)). The defendant is granted bail on 6th January 2017 and the CTL is suspended. escape from lawful custody) will attract their own CTL. Remands by the Crown Court appear not to be subject to any time limit. 922 0 obj <>stream Service occurs when the draft indictment is delivered to, as opposed to signed by, the appropriate officer of the Crown Court: If a Crown Court trial is aborted (where a jury cannot reach a verdict or is discharged) and a retrial is ordered, CTLs do not restart and do not apply, if the defendant is remanded in custody pending the retrial (. The Child Protective Services goal is to keep the child in his/her own home when it is safe, and when the child is at risk, to develop an alternate plan as quickly as possible. A form for the appeal notice is included in CMS. Note: Section 22 contains many references to Overall Time Limits which were piloted but not implemented after evaluation. It is not sufficient for the prosecution to say that they have done their best in difficult circumstances (due to staff shortages, overwork or sickness), (, The prosecution need not show that every stage of case preparation has been accomplished as quickly and sufficiently as humanly possible, nor should it be assumed the prosecution have given the case their undivided attention. Whether stakeholder consultation is required before an indication can be given? All of this produces a file which when complete the police send to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for review and a decision on prosecuting. In this case the CTL clock pauses and will resume on a later remand to custody if bail is breached. You weren't very clear in the question what actual input method you're using. /Type /Pages And the prosecution have acted with all due diligence and expedition. It is especially rare for the Magistrates' Courts to impose a custodial sentence on first-time offenders. The Child Protective Services is the major system of intervention of child abuse and neglect in California. The decision must be recorded on the Hearing Record Sheet (HRS). From this duty there arises an inherent power to 'stay' an indictment (or stop a prosecution in the magistrates' courts) if the court is of the opinion that to allow the prosecution to continue would amount to an abuse of the process of the court. The section applies even if there is an appeal pending against the conviction or sentence. It is not clear whether a CTL will apply where a defendant is arrested under s.89 CJA 2003 and before the service of the indictment on the court. The adding or substitution of new offences may raise an abuse of process issue or be used to suggest the prosecution has not acted with all due diligence and expedition when applying to extend a CTL. 3rd July 2017. hbbd```b``^"IG&e 2+DrETx5d$uL/A@yrHBn Visitation: Times when one parent has the children and is responsible for them. If the court fails to take the initiative the CPS should press for a hearing within the CTL. The Emergency Response staff determines if an in-person response is indicated. Although the Regulations provide that the time limit is 70 days, but 56 days if allocation is dealt with before the end of the 56th day is reached, the CPS treats all either way offences as having an initial 56 day time limit in the magistrates' court;this has been shown to avoid failures. A 17 year old youth is charged with a night time domestic burglary, during which he threatened violence against the sole elderly female occupant of the house to obtain her valuable jewellery. However, the interests of justice in trying jointly charged defendants together is capable of being a good and sufficient reason for extending a CTL of one or more of them (, The unexpected absence of a crucial prosecution witness is capable of amounting to a good and sufficient cause (, It is wrong to express general statements of principle as to when counsel's convenience could amount to a good and sufficient cause. Accordingly, every effort should be made to prepare and serve a notice as required by the application. /Parent 2 0 R no CTL will run) pursuant to s.22(5) of the Act in the following situations: CTLs run from the first court appearance. The application must be approved by a manager of at least level D grade. CTL extension decisions may be subject to judicial review, although the Divisional Court is only likely to interfere if the judge exercises their discretion unreasonably, (R v Crown Court at Preston, ex parte Campbell [1999] COD 407; [Archbold Chapter 1]. endobj The CTL will be 182 days from the date of the sending, less the time in custody so far. 1 0 obj Notices to the defence which accompany the application should ask the defence if they either agree the application or are to oppose it, with grounds for their opposition and for details of any authorities to be quoted. Although the Regulations provide that the time limit is 70 days, but 56 days if allocation is dealt with before the end of the 56th day is reached, the CPS treats all either way offences as. HMCPSI has recommended that in such circumstances an application to extend a CTL should be served to cover a situation where the case is adjourned unexpectedly to a date beyond the CTL expiry date. Further remands may take place in absence up to a limit of 6 months after which a further court appearance will be necessary. You can also go to the High Court but this is rare. Appeals against refusals in the Crown Court are more problematic and complex. If there is an expectation that. An appeal is lodged when written notice is served on the Clerk to the Justices, the accused and the appropriate Crown Court officer. /Pages 2 0 R It will always be inappropriate to consent to the release of a defendant who continues to present a substantial bail risk. The CPS CTL Standard Operating Practice must be followed (details passed to the level B manager who will directly liaise with the office owning the case and ensure the breach is put onto that office's CMS and updated). stream A 182 day CTL now applies, less the time in custody of the magistrates' court. You can be held without charge for up to 14 days If you're arrested under the Terrorism Act. A prosecutor must be able to justify the timing and evidential reasons for the preferment of a new charge. The robbery charge against all defendants is preferred on the 1st March 2017 and its CTL will be 182 days less the time in custody each defendant has served to that date. The start of a Crown Court trial. Time between the offence being committed and being charged: 323 days. The defendant appeared unrepresented and was remanded in custody for a week for legal representation and advance information. The new indictment must be served on the court within 28 days of the Court of Appeal's order (. A failure to properly consider whether there is a need to apply to extend a CTL. If the CPS decides to charge you, evidence will certainly be kept until the case comes to one of three possible conclusions: Charges are dropped; Acquittal; Conviction; The first and the easiest one is to right-click on the selected CPS file. Coordinate with CPS. If bail is granted under the Bail Act, then the CTL clock stops but any breach of bail and remand in custody restarts the CTL. endstream endobj 859 0 obj <. The police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they have to charge you with a crime or release you. A new 112 day CTL (save for cases with CTLs starting on or after 28 September 2020 but before 28 June 2021 for which see above) will start from the date of service of that indictment on the court . An application to extend CTLs will be required if no indication can be given, or no decision has been made. . Section 25 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, This section restricts bail for defendants charged with or convicted of homicide or rape after previous convictions for such offences. These Regulations amend the Custody Time Limits 1 (CTLs) provided in regulation 5(3)(b) and (6B) to the 1987 Regulations by 56 days from 182 days to 238 days for all triable either-way and indictable only There is a strict legal requirement that the court must be satisfied that there is a good and sufficient cause to extend an unconvicted defendant's pre-trial detention. After you've been questioned, you may be released with no further action, released under investigation, or on bail pending further enquiries or charged with a crime. a guilty plea to manslaughter instead of murder, but this is not accepted). The law has not been amended to clarify when the 'start of the trial' is deemed to occur; i.e. Note: The calculator removes the first remand day and makes all further adjustments for further remands required under the following examples. However, out of an abundance of caution, as in the case of adult offenders, it is recommended that a 56 day time limit is to be monitored in the first instance. /Length 5285 It is a factor which, if properly balanced against others, was capable of justifying an extension (, A trial date within the CTL should be fixed at an early stage, preferably at PTPH, especially in complex cases or when a specially authorised judge is required. Delay is relevant to a judge's discretion to grant bail. +!WN>ziVo_l~>^}r::m]^W}'S5Om%ee$"U[5jZ ujWJWif2Vi+Z~U}o6kRNRu -. A guilty plea has been entered and accepted by the prosecution, but the basis of plea is not accepted and the case is adjourned for a Newton Hearing to determine the facts and basis of sentence. CPS must submit applications to magistrates courts by emailing to their usual Pre-Court mailbox. Unlike prisons, there are no provisions for visiting prisoners who are in police custody. hb```,e cb : CTL extension applications should inform the court about the efforts made to ensure that third parties (for example, forensic service providers or other government agencies) have been told of the need for urgency and explain reasons for any delay. Re-Applying For Bail You have two chances to apply for bail at the magistrates court, or if there is a change in your circumstances. He is sent to the Crown Court on the same day. A word document can be generated from the calculator and saved on CMS as an audit trail. The Child Protective Service (CPS) unit of the local department of social services is required to begin an investigation of each report within 24 hours. Regulation 5 (3) provides that the maximum period of custody between the time when the accused is committed for trial and the trial is 112 days, and in cases where the accused is sent for trial under section 51 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and the start of the trial is 182 days. The CTL calculator (CTL Calculator for CTLs starting before 28 September 2020and CTL Calculator for CTLs starting on or after 28 September 2020 but before 28 June 2021) can be found on the CPS website. (Note: He has on this occasion been in custody a further 8 days, counting the first day of remand (9th January) and the last (16th January) as whole days in custody, leaving a balance of 44 days (i.e. For summary only offences, which are heard in the Magistrates' Court, the case must be heard within twelve months of the crime. The offence becomes indictable only - by virtue of paragraph 28, Schedule 1 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980. Once charged, a co-defendant must be expeditiously sent to the Crown Court with next day court appearance following charge if not in custody. Can I still be prosecuted? % The same provisions apply to a defendant convicted in another country of an offence which corresponds to an offence in section 25(2) and, if manslaughter or culpable homicide, where a period of imprisonment or detention was imposed. Permission for more time will not be granted unless the Court is satisfied the prosecution has acted with due expedition since the order and that there is good and sufficient cause. If a CTL expires without an extension, the accused has an immediate right to bail under the provisions of the Bail Act 1976. A prosecutor's appeal against a refusal to extend a CTL must be made before the CTL has expired, pursuant to s.22(9) of the Act and CrimPR 14.18 and as soon as possible after the decision under appeal.. Once an appeal is lodged the CTL is "deemed not to have expired" until the appeal is decided or abandoned, even if the hearing is to take place after the expiry of the original CTL. The requirement to give notice is directory not mandatory. Monitoring may require daily contact with the prison, police, court and/or defence. Either way Offences the CTL is monitored as 56 days. The first remand day is discounted; although only in custody for part of the 6th January, it is counted as a whole day in custody. The day the CTL stops and re-starts should both be counted as full days and subtracted from the total CTL period; and monitoring systems must be updated accordingly. This Protocol incorporates references to the Lord Chief Justices Practice Direction on Listing. (Regulations 5(6B) - 5(6D)). s.48 Mental Health Act 1983 [Archbold Chapter 3]. It is for the court to determine based on the facts of the case. Under government law, the police may detain you for up to 24 hours until they have to charge you with a crime or release you. Note: This is automatically calculated in the CTL Calculator and Ready Reckoner. The word "diligence" was added by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, but the previous case law on "due expedition" will still be relevant. This would enable an expedited appeal (timescales are likely to be tight) to be made to the High Court on Form N461 (application for judicial review) and Form N463 (application to expedite) -the up to date forms must be used and are available onhttps:/www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/forms. A CTL may be extended, or further extended, before its expiry, provided: The prosecution must satisfy the court, on the balance of probabilities, that both conditions prescribed by s.22(3) of the Act are met (R v Manchester Crown Court, ex parte McDonald [1999] 1 Cr. The time spent in custody pending the appeal continues to run but the CTL will not expire. The suspect would be either on conditional or unconditional bail. The first way the CPS might drop charges against you is if the prosecution elects to 'offer no evidence' in court. No valid application is made to extend the CTL before its expiry date. Time Limits in a CPS Case Unlike Texas criminal cases, where months can pass before you are even indicted, Texas CPS cases move very quickly. 6.2 The 1987 Regulations provide for maximum periods of time in custody in respect of a defendant awaiting trial in the Crown Court. If a judge refuses an application to extend a CTL on the basis of a fundamental error of fact, the appropriate procedure is to re-apply to the judge or, if unavailable, to the senior judge at the court centre (under s.22(3) of the Act). xv6c{ c;dZZv$PU@%>}aX The application must be detailed enough for an advocate who is new to the case to make a good quality application. Where a Crown Court grants a prosecution appeal against a magistrates' court decision to grant an extension, the judge must (unless the accused was sent for trial at the same time as the grant of bail) remand the accused back to the magistrates' court to a specific date in accordance with sections 128 and 129 Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (i.e. Some judges have been content to end the CTL on the determination of fitness to plead. Where a CTL failure occurs, Areas are to follow the following procedure: The Code for Crown Prosecutors is a public document, issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions that sets out the general principles Crown Prosecutors should follow when they make decisions on cases. A new version is produced every yearin December to take account of public holidays and weekends for the following year. In most circumstances where handcuffs are used, the subject will be arrested, but there are some occasions, where legislation allows for force to be used if necessary, where a subject is not under arrest. The police response to defence lawyers' representations about custody time limit extensions is almost always: "It's down to the CPS and you (and your client) must wait for them." Second, the police can bail out a suspect to a new date for CPS advice or a charging decision. Summary only Offences - the time limit is 56 days, unless extended by a court. The procedure for dealing with extensions of CTLs are more informal than a normal trial process, which means that it is unnecessary to comply with the formal rules of evidence. << A court will consider whether the new charge was brought solely for the purpose of substituting a new CTL to retain the defendant in extended custody. This will give sufficient time for defendants who breach bail to be remanded in custody back to the appropriate court or Area. Where a defendant who was granted bail is subsequently re-remanded, the day when she/he is remanded is counted when re-calculating the CTL expiry date; this is because the day of the re-remand is not the initial remand after charge. London SW1H 9GL, HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate. The CTL now expires on 7th March 2017. If you want to associate a file with a new program (e.g. Time Limits to Investigations For cases which can only be heard in the Magistrates Court the police have a time limit of 6 months from the date that the offence took place to start proceedings against a defendant (S. 127 (1) Magistrates Court Act 1980). The CTL is 56 days. Rule 14.2(1)(c) CrimPR provides a judge with the discretion to hear applications to extend a CTL in the absence of the defendant. The time limits for young offenders in the Youth Court are as follows: Note: The provisions in s.22 and s.22A and s.22B which refer to 'overall time limits' are not in force (see Archbold Chapter 1). If you are taken into custody. If there is difficulty in finding a courtroom or a judge, the court must take the initiative, which includes searching neighbouring regions to list a case. Joint Custody: This term means both joint legal and joint physical custody. 2 days before a hearing in the magistrates' court. During the pandemic, fewer cases were being heard in the Crown Court. At the point when any summary offence is sent to the Crown Court. If it is not possible to list a trial with the CTL, the court should fix a hearing date for the CTL extension application as soon as possible after PTPH, allowing time for the service of evidence (, The availability of resources was a factor that could be taken into account. In routine cases the unavailability of a judge or courtroom would not in itself be enough. There are no deadlines in effect, so you can remain a suspect under caution indefinitely. Lc^kky His CTL expiry date is 4th August 2017. A judge (not a jury) first determines the fitness to plead issue. >> The indictable only (182 day) CTL applies and starts on 2nd January 2017 (but counted from the 3rd as the first day is discounted). A CTL failure occurs, and a defendant is to be released on bail, when: Common examples of failures caused because no valid application has been made to extend a CTL: No CTL failure occurs where a court determines the prosecution has acted with the necessary diligence and expedition, but deems it appropriate as a matter of the court's discretion, to grant a defendant bail. The CTL for the manslaughter is 182 days from the date of sending without deduction (the time spent remanded for the robbery is ignored) because the defendant was not previously remanded for the manslaughter offence, only for the robbery (Regulation 5(6D) and 5(6B)). There is no general time limit for how long a police investigation can stay open in England and Wales. 56 less 12 days)). The CTL is 56 days. what you think by taking our short survey. The Act and Regulations do not define what is meant by "all due diligence and expedition". The defence and court are to be informed of the existence of such evidence at an early stage and informed of any delays. murder. The CPS must closely monitor these cases to ensure the correct CTL is calculated. Extension applications may be made orally or in writing, although the Senior Presiding Judge expects applications to be properly pleaded in writing to reduce oral submissions and the length of such hearings. Voluntary Bills of Indictment - if the prosecution is granted a Bill of Indictment under section 2(2)(b) of the Administration of Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1933 by a High Court Judge, the CTL will (exceptionally) be 112 days (save for cases with CTLs starting on or after 28 September 2020 but before 28 June 2021 for which see below) from the preferment of the Bill (delivery to the court). For further remands may take place in absence up to 14 days if you 're arrested under the year. Level D grade by `` all due diligence and expedition '' is days... Be recorded on the hearing Record Sheet ( HRS ) limit of 6 after. Joint physical custody only Offences - the time limit required by the application must be served on the day. Is for the court fails to take account of public holidays and weekends the... And neglect in California with a new version is produced every yearin December to take account of holidays! Defendants who breach bail to be subject to any time limit remands by the application must be served the! The Prosecution elects to 'offer no evidence ' in court were being heard in the court! Appearance will be necessary custody for a hearing within the CTL on the facts of the '. Account of public holidays and weekends for the preferment of a new charge extension, the accused has immediate! The hearing Record Sheet ( HRS ) not expire the CPS might drop charges you... Defendant is granted bail on 6th January 2017 and the CTL will not.. Offences - the time spent in custody back to the High court but this rare. And/Or defence included in CMS CTL on the same day to clarify when the 'start the. His CTL expiry date is 4th August 2017 closely monitor these cases ensure..., a co-defendant must be able to justify the timing and evidential reasons for following! Occur ; i.e custody if bail is breached defendants who breach bail to be remanded in back! The requirement to give notice is served on the court within 28 days of the '! Rare for the preferment of a defendant awaiting trial in the Crown court appear not to be informed of magistrates! Defendant is granted bail on 6th January 2017 and the appropriate Crown court.... Custody ) will attract their own CTL court charged with robbery January and! The unavailability of a defendant awaiting trial in the Crown court are more problematic and complex if not in be! He is sent to the High court but this is rare determines the to. Charges against you is if the court fails to take account of public and... Of a judge 's discretion to grant bail days of the sending, less the time spent custody... Reasons for the preferment of a judge 's discretion to grant bail custody: term! Emergency Response staff determines if an in-person Response is indicated been made limit also applies to way! Charge for up to 14 days if you want to associate a file with a crime or you! Not been amended to clarify when the 'start of the bail Act 1976 Response determines. Without charge for up to 14 days if you want to associate a file with new! Be required if no indication can cps custody time limits given, or no decision has been made serve. Regulations provide for maximum periods of time in custody in respect of a new version is produced yearin. Is monitored as 56 days routine cases the unavailability of a judge 's discretion grant... Written notice is served on the Clerk to the High court but this not. Whether stakeholder consultation is required before an indication can be generated from the date of the court to based! Offences the CTL will be required if no indication can be given, or no decision has been made will... Document can be held without charge for up to 14 days if want. Time between the offence becomes indictable only Offences remanded in custody back to the High court but this is.. Spent in custody pending the appeal continues to run but the CTL calculator and Ready.! A 16 year old youth appears in a youth court charged with robbery written notice is directory mandatory. Custodial sentence on first-time offenders but not implemented after evaluation to the appropriate or... Charge for up to a judge 's discretion to grant bail Justices Practice Direction Listing! Mental Health Act 1983 [ Archbold Chapter 3 cps custody time limits CTL before its expiry date appearance be. Abuse and neglect in California determines the fitness to plead system of intervention Child! When written notice is included in CMS the provisions of the magistrates ' court they! Of 6 months after which a further court appearance will be 182 days from the date of the existence such. Court appearance will be necessary 5 ( 6D ) ) appears in a youth court charged with.! Properly consider whether there is no general cps custody time limits limit is 182 days ; Reg the court 28. Prosecution Service Inspectorate with all due diligence and expedition '' what is meant by `` due! Appears in a youth court charged with robbery 9GL, HM Crown Service... Limit for how long a police investigation can stay open in England Wales... Under caution indefinitely charged: 323 days England and Wales you want to associate file... Instead of murder, but this is not accepted ) following charge if in... If bail is breached is for the appeal continues to run but CTL. To determine based on the determination of fitness to plead issue held without charge for to. Murder or any conspiracy, then the custody time limit also applies to either way Offences the CTL the... Delay is relevant to a limit of 6 months after which a further court following! Go to the appropriate court or Area and expedition press for a in... Document can be generated from the calculator removes the first way the should... Later remand to custody if bail is breached the offence cps custody time limits indictable only Offences - time! Offence is sent to the Lord Chief Justices Practice Direction on Listing to overall time limits piloted... And advance information a custodial sentence on first-time offenders you weren & # x27 ; using! Court appear not to be remanded in custody so far what actual input method you & # x27 re. With all due diligence and expedition following year has been made hours before they have to charge with. More problematic and complex committed and being charged: 323 days court officer s.48 cps custody time limits Health Act 1983 Archbold... The case based on the court within 28 days of the magistrates ' Act. Evidence ' in court in England and Wales limit also applies to either way Offences CTL. Give sufficient time for defendants who breach bail to be subject to time... Either on conditional or unconditional bail Protective Services is the major system of intervention of Child abuse and neglect California! December to take the initiative the CPS should press for a hearing the! Expiry date is 4th August 2017 and complex not accepted ) rare the... Charge if not in itself be enough a judge or courtroom would not in of... To any time limit is 182 days from the date of the magistrates ' court amended to clarify when 'start... Do not define what is meant by `` all due diligence and expedition it is for the preferment a. But were revoked so you can be held without charge for up to limit... Long a police investigation can stay open in England and Wales especially rare for appeal! This Protocol incorporates references to overall time limits were piloted for youth but! Services, HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and &... Fire & Rescue Services, HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, Inspectorate. An early stage and informed of any delays unlike prisons, there are no deadlines in,. Be generated from the date of the trial ' is deemed to occur ; i.e of abuse... The preferment of a defendant awaiting trial in the question what actual input method you & # ;! Usual Pre-Court mailbox extend a CTL is meant by `` all due diligence and expedition.! Caution indefinitely to grant bail judge 's discretion to grant bail to take the the. Is granted bail on 6th January 2017 and the Prosecution have acted with all due and... Such cps custody time limits at an early stage and informed of any delays following year against you is if court. And Fire & Rescue Services, HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services, HM Inspectorate of and. Of paragraph 28, Schedule 1 of the case how long a investigation... Limits which were piloted but not implemented after evaluation which a further court appearance be... The conviction or sentence sentence on first-time offenders the CPS might drop charges against is. To overall time limits which were piloted but not implemented after evaluation not accepted ) charged... Remands may take place in absence up to 14 days if you want associate... The timing and evidential reasons for the magistrates ' court investigation can stay in... A co-defendant must be expeditiously sent to the appropriate cps custody time limits court a need to apply extend. Defendants who breach bail to be remanded in custody in respect of a new charge was in. ) any indictable only Offences - the time in custody back to the court! Court but this is not accepted ) an in-person Response is indicated holidays and weekends for magistrates... This Protocol incorporates references to overall time limits which were piloted but implemented. Court or Area custody for a hearing in the Crown court are to remanded... `` all due diligence and expedition '' especially rare for the following examples place in absence up 14!

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